EPISODE #3.4:

Want a Bottom-Line Boost from DEI? Focus on Inclusion – With Judy Ellis

Or listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts.

Aren’t we human beings hilarious? The ways we can find to discount and disqualify others, especially in competitive environments, is sometimes stunning.” 

Judy Ellis, my guest knows what she is talking about. She has been working with corporations on culture, diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI)  for 20+ years. Yet many companies miss opportunities to realize a positive bottom-line impact. 

Judy  has seen all kinds of DEI efforts. She reports when businesses engage in a watered-down versions of DEI, or merely focus on the numbers, they are missing tremendous opportunities for increasing their competitive edge. 

And guess what?

Inclusion, when authentic, can have a positive impact on the bottom line. 

Why?Because diverse points of view, when listened to and respected, bring innovation. And employees who are included in the decision-making bring fresh points of view that help companies identify and tap new markets. 

For example, Judy talks about her work with P&G many years ago. 

Case in point: a consumer products firm that was missing out on a lucrative market related to ethnic hair care  because their homogenous thinkers didn’t know anything about these needs. 

Judy recounts the following aha: 

“It’s like, is that really a market? Are you kidding me? It’s worth $300 billion and we’re not in it. Why is that? And now they have some leading products in that space. That’s bringing lots of money into the coffers because these people have different experiences and know some things about some things that others may not know.”

Judy advises on how to overcome our very natural biases or blind spots that conveniently allow us to protect ourselves. Sometimes we can’t see all that’s right in front of us. But, according to Judy, we can learn to uncover and correct for our blind spots. 

She talks about “Learning ways to unlearn the way we look at life and to begin to learn how others may see life is one of the biggest leadership skills that helps with not only diversity, equity, and inclusion, but with just being a good people leader.”

Here is a snapshot of a few topics we cover in this podcast…..

• The difference between assimilation framework for diversity and a deeper and more beneficial approach to differences and inclusion 
• How to approach DEI for an impact on the company’s bottom line. 
• How to move from diversity measured by the numbers to inclusion that provides a true seat at the table of power and decision-making 
• Ways to introduce diversity and inclusion into companies while avoiding resistance 

More about Judy Ellis, M.A.

Judy and her teams provide insight, guidance, and direction to individuals and organizations alike. Her one-on-one coaching with leaders enables solid advances whether the need is developing increased cultural competence, higher emotional intelligence, stronger leadership ability, or improved conflict management skills. Judy’s work quickens the untangling that’s necessary for progress, whether the knots are within individuals, among team members, or arise from the complexities of the organization as a whole. 

Her practical approach is built on a foundation of 10 years of management experience in Human Resources and Corporate Communications at Procter & Gamble; combined with serving 20 years as an external consultant and coach. She has received recognition and business awards from the Greater Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce, the Ohio Minority Supplier Development Council, and Make-A-Wish of Ohio/Kentucky/Indiana.

Judy serves as an Adjunct Professor in the University of Cincinnati’s Applied Psychology Program, where she teaches a Master’s level course in Workforce Diversity. She has a B.S. in Management and Organizations from Indiana University’s Kelly School of Business, and a B.A. and M.A. in Theology. She is a member of the Association of Training & Development and SHRM. She is active in nonprofit leadership boards, including Make-A-Wish, Indiana University Alumni Association, and Procter & Gamble Alumni Foundation.

EPISODE #3.4 TRANSCRIPT

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Welcome to the Conscious Culture Café, a podcast that explores how you can lean into your purpose, live your values, and enhance your social impact through your work. I’m your host, Kathy Miller Perkins.

My guest today is Judy Ellis. She is a coach, a business consultant, and a facilitator with over 30 years of experience, untangling complex, interpersonal, and organizational dynamics, particularly those related to diversity and inclusion. Judy and I were introduced a little over a year ago, and have been working together almost from the day we met. Her company Think People, and my company, Miller Consultants have formed a strategic partnership.

I so enjoy working with Judy. She has so many insights, and tips, and thoughts to share with you today. I can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Judy. Welcome. It’s so nice to have you here. It’s always a pleasure to have these conversations with you and I so enjoy working with you. Because we work together, I know a lot about what you do and about your background, but would you share a little bit of that with the listeners?

Judy Ellis:

Yes, Kathy, thank you so much for having me. It’s a joy to work with you as well. As you said, you know a lot about me, but I will say most of my professional life was built on a 10 year career where I started with Proctor and Gamble in Cincinnati, out of undergraduate school. And what I learned through that experience of being in a large global company, the systems, et cetera, was invaluable for my career. I also learned there, that while I had an aptitude for some professions like finance, where I started, that I didn’t really have a passion. And that my passion was for more of the people side of the business. So after moving into human resources, and finishing my career in corporate communications, I left and co-founded a business with my husband that worked on diversity, equity, and inclusion management, and have been working in that business for 20 years.

And in the last two years, I opened my own business Think People, because one of the things I found was that we were often being told, only work on the issues of underrepresented groups, when we were in companies. Our strong point was training and facilitation. And while I love and enjoy training, and facilitation, and teaching, I even teach a workforce diversity class at the University of Cincinnati, I knew that people issues are more systemic, and that they’re all interrelated and interconnected. And so I wanted to bring more of the skillset of organizational change management to the diversity, equity, and inclusion discussion, and really work on the broader culture issues as well as work on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Let’s start with a question that I’ve been thinking about, and that is, it seems like things have changed in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space since the pandemic and since the George Floyd incident. Could you tell me what your experience has been with DEI in the last few months as a result of these crises?

Judy Ellis:

Oh, if you talk about change, this is the most significant period of change I’ve ever had professionally. But for 20 years, as I’ve been working in the DEI space, we have had a shifting away from wanting to talk directly about issues of racial and cultural diversity. And while in many ways, I think the move toward inclusion is significant and important, and I completely affirm it, that in some organizations that meant that they were no longer having discussions or looking at issues of racial equity and tension that can be caused, or exclusion that could happen by race, ethnicity, nationality. And in broadening the discussion, in some ways we watered down the look or the focus on these groups that are the most excluded. And some groups are more stigmatized than others. It’s a sociology construct. And in America you cannot really deal with diversity and inclusion issues without making sure you’re including conversations of race, and racial equity.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Let me ask you a question, Judy, why do you think it was watered down? How did that happen? Or why did that happen?

Judy Ellis:

Well, why I believe it happened as a student of human nature is that it’s more difficult to talk about things that we don’t understand or are the most unlike us. And for a while, diversity became just focus on behavioral instruments like Myers-Briggs and DISC, and I’m green, you’re red, which – that is important. Because the inclusion piece talks about how there are many ways that we are different and at our core is our identity or personality, which is a significant difference. And as I know you know, in corporations, many extroverts have predominance, because they are quick to speak up, and aren’t as reflective like me. So we could just babble on and often get more attention. Where there may be some introverts who are very deep thinkers and need time to process.

So it’s important to help people know that there are many dimensions of difference, but the excitement on, oh, I’m an E, and I’m an ENFP…. And people putting their labels on their office cubicle. And so that became, it’s much more comfortable to talk about that, than it is to say, why do we only have 1% ethnic minorities in our organization, and let’s look at that when we’re talking about this issue.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s a very good point.

Judy Ellis:

So I think it’s just got watered down, so to speak, but we’ve even had to do things like move away from calling the effort, a diversity and inclusion effort in many companies because of the fear of backlash by majority employees.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

It seems to me that people use the term diversity, equity, and inclusion in a variety of ways. Would you give me your definitions of diversity, equity, and inclusion, especially as it relates to the workplace?

Judy Ellis:

Diversity is really about the ways that we are different, and it really was equated to racial and ethnic minorities. So years ago, I was asked when I worked at that global packaged goods company, to serve on many committees to represent diverse stakeholders since I’m African American. That kind of was an unintended consequence of the focus strictly on underrepresented groups. There was accounting, so to speak, although I’m not against measurements. But if your only focus is on numbers and you say, we need to make sure we have 40% women in this role, I want to have 10% ethnic minorities. Then it can turn into a checking the box type of equation, where an assumption is, I may be lowering the bar to fill the numbers. Although this is not true women, ethnic minorities, et cetera, are just as qualified and capable as any other. So in many ways, inclusion is bringing more authenticity, and a sense of belonging for the people that are diverse. This is more of the goal that we’re working towards in the last five to 10 years.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh, that’s great. So how did that change? I mean, it makes sense, but how did companies start recognizing that they needed to turn from just looking at the numbers?

Judy Ellis:

Well, I think many of the underrepresented populations were getting what we now term microaggressions, where people were saying things like, “Well, you’re only here because they needed a woman.” Or someone gets promoted, and the office gossip is well it’s because they’re Latinx, and you know there’s a big focus. The company’s trying to fill roles with people like that.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh man.

Judy Ellis:

I know aren’t we human beings hilarious? The ways we can find to discount and disqualify, especially in competitive environments, is sometimes stunning.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh, it’s awful.

Judy Ellis:

But what the real inclusion discussion has done is to broaden the look, and to make sure all stakeholders are involved. Everyone understands part of your diversity in your corporation might be that frontline workers who aren’t degreed feel that their voices aren’t heard. The major auto manufacturer we work with, that was their issue. Many of the men who worked on the line, who didn’t have degrees, but worked with the machines, so to speak, daily would feel discounted when the engineers came through.

So for them, their functional difference caused them not to feel as respected. And so that’s often our way in, when we do training. We start with some of the ways that we’re different, that are less emotionally charged.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh, interesting.

Judy Ellis:

So that people can understand what it is we’re talking about. So at our core, we have this personality difference, but then a layer out, we have our visible differences in gender identity, which are observable, and easily seen. And then we keep moving out organizationally, we have differences be as socioeconomically. We have differences in our functional roles in organization. So in many ways, when we talk about it in that way, and we say, “You guys know that there’s a stigma with some differences that has more weight than others.”

If you’re a disabled female from an ethnic minority, who would want to get that role in life versus others? And we talk about why that is. Why would you not want to be that person? Well, it would be harder to get around. People might judge me, blah blah. And is it better to have a degree in your company or not to have a college degree? Which one would you prefer? So when people start seeing that, you know, that in real life, societally, there is a judgment or a perception that’s made and it’s not equal. There are different weights of stigma associated with the ways that we are different. And once people buy in to going, yeah, that’s true because I grew up on the South side of town and that was the bad side and et cetera, then they can begin to say, okay, so how might you take that learning, and apply it to being a woman engineer, and the only one in an entire company, what might that experience be like?

So inclusion really is about people authentically bringing even traditionally excluded groups into the processes, the decision making, the activities, in a way that shares power and ensures equal access to opportunity. And that there’s a sense of belonging that I really have a seat at the table, the same as anyone else in kind of the idea marketplace in my work, I can be heard, just like anyone else.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s really interesting the way you go about that. It sounds to me like what you’re doing is you’re building some empathy, and some, in the lingo, emotional intelligence, as you go. That allows people to understand at a deeper level what the racial issues might be. Would that be a fair way to describe it?

Judy Ellis:

I really love that, because empathy is the most important skill in my view, to bring to the discussion of diversity and inclusion. Because if you cannot take the perspective of others, you will not ever see these issues. The way bias works, we have blind spots, we all have bias. And those patterns of mind of thinking allow us conveniently to protect ourselves by not seeing all that’s right in front of us. Learning ways to unlearn the way we look at life and to begin to learn how others may see life is one of the biggest leadership skills that helps with not only diversity, equity, and inclusion, but with just being a good people leader.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh good point.

Judy Ellis:

It’s only through beginning to have discussions with others, that allows you to put on a different lens and imagine what life could be like for another person, that’s the beginning of opening you up to understanding that other people that have different backgrounds and racial makeups, and experiences may not actually be experiencing life, even in your beloved organization, in the same way as you, is the beginning of the discussion.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh, very interesting. You’d think people would realize that, but we don’t automatically realize those differences do we?

Judy Ellis:

We don’t. And I think we have a bias toward positivity in business.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah yeah.

Judy Ellis:

Which helps us in a lot of ways, because you have to be resilient as you and I know.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh, yes.

Judy Ellis:

Because you often, there may be periods where you’re hearing more nos than yeses or the marketplace is shifting and you have to remain positive, but in remaining positive, you may be overlooking something that’s happened. And people don’t like a focus on history and they don’t enjoy, hey, let’s talk about the history of bias and discrimination in this country.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Right right. Not pleasant.

Judy Ellis:

It’s like, what, are you kidding me? That happened in the past, why do we have to focus on that? But really there are vestiges of our past that show up in our present. And they’re often unseen, which is the talk about systemic, or structural racism. And even though you don’t go out and intend to, I’m going to pick a racist system, and that’s what I want to design in my company. That’s where the implicit or unconscious bias discussion comes in. And I think a lot of, especially clients I coach, because I coach people all over the spectrum, some with not very significant cultural understanding. That the belief is if I’m not intentionally going out and trying to exclude anyone, then I must be fair. And my entire company must be fair, but there’s often a lot more going on. As I say, is it an unseen hand that has made only four African Americans in the United States, CEOs of major companies?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah, right.

Judy Ellis:

Do we think that’s really a meritocracy and that there’s nothing going on except the best people are getting to the top. And yet we only have four out of tens of thousands.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Right. Good point.

Judy Ellis:

You and I have been in the work force long enough to remember when there weren’t many women at the C-suite and executive level. I remember being in corporations where people were actually still saying, “Well, are there women qualified to be in these roles?” And I’ve heard it for so many decades that it’s like fingernails on a chalkboard.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

I know, I know. And it’s still there. It’s still there.

Judy Ellis:

It is still there. But if you look in the same pool, which is your school, you went to, your favorite place for recruiting, your buddies that you talk to. When you do look in that pool, there isn’t a lot of diversity that could be true, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It means you need to widen your net.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Exactly. Yes.

Judy Ellis:

And often that’s the first place companies start is in the recruiting. But companies that have been at this for decades are doing much more and looking at progression rates, et cetera, and even all of that is important. But it’s only a part of the discussion because the inclusion discussion, which is so important that Verna Myers was a diversity advocate who coined the phrase, “Diversity is being invited to the party, but inclusion is being asked to dance.”

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh, that’s great. That’s wonderful. What a great metaphor.

Judy Ellis:

Right. Because you could be sitting there, but your voice isn’t really heard, or your ideas aren’t really accepted. And so that’s what that sense of belonging and really being a part, and fully included is what we are looking for now, and what top organizations that want to be a best workplace are focusing on. Because there’s so much data on the return on investment now, that is not just the nice thing to do. That businesses that fully include and use more diverse teams, have better financial performance.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Really? What do you attribute that to?

Judy Ellis:

Because you’re getting the best ideas from all the people.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Makes sense. Absolutely.

Judy Ellis:

And diverse… One of the studies said that even adding global diversity, I think it bumped up financial performance by 20%.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh my goodness.

Judy Ellis:

But it’s like if we were to make a company that only wanted to work on issues of Midwestern companies and we included only people from Cincinnati.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes.

Judy Ellis:

And as you and I know geographical difference in the way people relate to each other is fairly significant.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes, indeed.

Judy Ellis:

So if you have a set of individuals, let’s just say in the South and I have a client in North Carolina, there’s just a certain way and style of operating that they have, that if you come in with a completely different way of communicating, you’re not going to get very far. And so having that, understanding, that at this plant in Georgia, we may need to use these tactics. Versus on the West coast in California, we might need to pivot a little bit and do things a little differently. And so that’s kind of a microcosm of why diverse teams perform better, because they have more experiences. They bring more to the table. I know when I was at Proctor and Gamble, we did not have a focus on an ethnic hair care business, but many of the black research scientists, marketing professionals, and others for years were advocating, we are missing a multibillion dollar market. We think we need to pull a team together to look at this. Why did this not occur to others? Well, because they don’t know anything about ethnic hair.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Right right.

Judy Ellis:

It’s like, is that really a market? Are you kidding me? It’s worth $300 billion and we’re not in it. Why is that? And now they have some leading products in that space. That’s bringing lots of money into the coffers because these people have different experiences and know some things about some things that others may not know.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

So it’s not just employees being diverse and, and understanding each other’s cultures better internally. It’s also about the products, and the advertising, and the way they approach customers, that makes a diverse team more effective it sounds like.

Judy Ellis:

Yes. Yes. Because the marketplace is diverse.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Absolutely.

Judy Ellis:

We may not have much diversity in all our leadership ranks, but at some point our consumers are diverse.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Absolutely, yes.

Judy Ellis:

And there are different ways that they engage with products. I know some product research that was being done in the early days. Again, when I was at that consumer packaged goods company, diversity just is not just a discussion and let’s have a kumbaya moment, or only focus on what we’re doing internally. But it makes sense from a bottom line, business perspective that when we’re treating people well internally, when we’re including everyone, when all people are respected, when their understanding and voices can lead to innovation, then our external performance is going to be better.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s really a very profound statement and important, I think for the listeners to understand. And that reminds me of something that I’ve noticed over the years. Maybe not so much now, but well, it’s still some now where companies will hire a diverse workforce. But then when they talk about inclusion, they talk about including people in the conversation, but not respecting or acknowledging the differences that they bring. So the company’s leaders would say, “Well, we include, we have these focus groups or we have these discussions, and everybody can talk about their own positions in these discussions.” But there’s a subtle conformity that goes on, so that the dominant opinions are the ones that are reinforced. So it’s not really inclusion. And I don’t see how in companies that do that, whether they’re recognizing it or not, it’s like they’re socializing people in these diverse populations to be just like everybody else. To be like the dominant culture. And so you lose that. You lose that real value that comes from diversity. Have you seen that lately? Is it getting better? Where are we with this socialization process in companies?

Judy Ellis:

I think there are pockets of places where it’s getting better, but there are many places where it is not. And what I hear you talking about Kathy, is that if you have an assimilationist view of diversity… I won’t of course, divulge the client, but I had a client come to me maybe 10 years ago, that said, “We need to be more diverse. We recognize that. And we need to do events that attract more diverse people on the outside.” It was a nonprofit client. So can you come in and talk to us because we realize that we’re not serving everyone in the community? Well, when I did an audit and looked at all their programming, the kinds of programs they were executing, did not appeal to a diverse community. And frankly, they wanted more African Americans. And when I talked with them about their programming, like these guitar nights, et cetera, it was like, do you think that… Have you ever done research about what kind of entertainment African Americans want to come to?

How many people are trying to participate in this? After looking at all the information and data presented, they said, “You know what, what we realize is we do want diversity, but we want only diverse people that enjoy the same things that we are already doing.” I kid you not.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

What’s the point then.

Judy Ellis:

Exactly. But it’s what you said, Kathy.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh my goodness.

Judy Ellis:

What they were saying without knowing it is we want assimilated African Americans that can enjoy things exactly as they are with the current leaders that we have. And if they could be happy, just keeping everything exactly like it is, those are the black people that we want to attract.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh my goodness. So how did you address that Judy?

Judy Ellis:

I did not work with them.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Good, good point. Excellent. Excellent. It reminds me of something that has been bothering me over the last many years now, that I’ve seen. And I don’t know whether companies are still doing this. I suspect they are. They’re using these instruments, hiring instruments that they give to people. They give to candidates to measure the degree to which those candidates are going to fit into their culture. And I’m thinking, well, where are you going to get the innovation? If you hire people based on whether they already fit into your culture, you’re not going to get any disruptors. And the disruptors are the ones who innovate. Are companies still doing that? How are they addressing diversity if they’re hiring based on culture fit?

Judy Ellis:

This is a real interesting discussion. And as you’ve said, it can be a slippery slope. On the one hand, you don’t want everyone in your company to be a disruptor. You and I have worked with a client in the past, who I think your experience you can attest to, they hired like a million disruptors at one time.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah. I’m laughing because yes, you and I have the experience of helping them deal with that.

Judy Ellis:

Right. And so when you hire a number of people who don’t actually fit the current culture at the same time, their level of push against the organization, while significant and important, may end up being counterproductive. So that’s what I think the merit of what people are hoping to do, is that we don’t want to bring in a person who’s a genius and a financial whiz, but they’re just so toxic that they are going to hurt the performance of others. And so that’s why I think these instruments are designed, and the intention is we want to find people that have the good traits that are going to make them successful here. But as you said, if they’re not looking carefully at how they’re measuring these traits, and are these really traits for success or are they just traits for likeness? And I’ve worked with an assessment, I won’t call it out, with another firm that I work with, who wants to get, we want these hard driving sales types that are resilient and can take no and keep pushing.

And so they’re very high on using assessments. Because they are looking to screen out people that may not be able to function in that kind of competitive struggle, daily struggle environment, but they did base it on the top performers that they have now, saying we’re trying to kind of clone these people. So we based an assessment on them and that’s who we want to get. But as you said, as a consultant, my watch out, was be careful that you’re not just creating group think, and you’re not missing people that may be able to bring some other dynamic or some other layer of innovation. So if you are using an assessment, don’t let it turn into the Bible, where that’s the only thing you look at, is how that assessment says people do. And that you’re able to actually have an interview, talk with people, listen to their experiences because you may be really missing out on some people that don’t fit the mold, so to speak.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah. And you talked about the disruptors hiring too many at one time can be a problem. And as you mentioned, sometimes disruptors can be toxic to a culture. And what I wonder, I don’t know that there’s an answer to this right now, but what I’m wondering is can disruptors be disruptive without being toxic? It seems like that’s an important distinction.

Judy Ellis:

Exactly. And I didn’t mean to imply that, every disruptor is not toxic. There are great people who think outside the box. Many, many people that are not as likely to push the system, will have companies working in archaic ways forever.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah, right.

Judy Ellis:

And so you definitely need that. And I love what our current workforce, having five different generations working side by side now, is doing. Because the younger generations are pushing a lot of our paradigms, are pushing companies to have more focus on balance and thinking of employees total life. And so if we didn’t have those voices coming in, en mass into the organization, we wouldn’t have this kind of systemic change that needed to happen. Where we needed to recognize employees are whole people, how much more have we started to see that in the COVID-19 days?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Oh yes.

Judy Ellis:

We need disruptors that can not only operate in disruption, but they also can be team players.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes, yes, yes. Very important point. Well, Judy, this conversation is so interesting. You and I could probably, and have talked for hours about these things and I wanted to thank you for coming. And I wanted to ask you, as we close, are there certain tips or comments that you would like for the listeners to be sure and take away from this discussion?

Judy Ellis:

Yes. I would say to remember that this is a critical historic moment. And while you may not know actually how you can engage to do more around diversity, equity, and inclusion, that there are ways you can personally get involved. One of the first is getting some cultural informants in your life.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Good advice.

Judy Ellis:

What I mean by that is just having relationships, something I think you’re great at Kathy. Which is saying, looking at who are 10 people that I go to most of the time when I have questions, when I have issues and looking at how diverse or not diverse is this group. And if it doesn’t have diverse voices in it, reach out to people. Because as we started, the discussion, empathy or understanding really happens most powerfully in one-on-one interactions.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes, indeed.

Judy Ellis:

Increase your cultural informants. And if you’re inside a company, call a friend before you send a statement out.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Good, good point, good advice.

Judy Ellis:

Phone a friend. Phone a friend. On diversity, equity, and inclusion. Because these efforts of talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, without explicitly giving any reasoning for it are really, really starting to seem tone deaf.

And it could be your Latinx friend who reads through it and goes, “You know what? I think we need to really name racism and bias and that’s what we’re looking for. And the reason we want to do it is because we don’t want to miss out on great opportunities that could come if we examine ways that we’re not allowing everyone, to get through in our organization.” And then I would say do some easy Netflix viewing, and understand more about the history of bias and discrimination in our country. Go ahead. It’s not going to be that painful. And I think Netflix has even added an entire Black Lives Matter section now. 

It’s really easy to get some education over the weekend. I watched a series recently that I didn’t know was on there, led by Henry Louis Gates called The African Americans. And it’s just history from the first African person hitting the shores of the United States. And it goes all the way through to modern times. Very, very well done, very well researched because there are reasons that we have some of the problems that we’re experiencing in society. And if you don’t know the history, you may not understand the passion, or where the generational systems of oppression, et cetera have occurred, and what that brings to the present day. So don’t be afraid of looking at history.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Good advice. I’m going to do it this weekend.

Judy Ellis:

Oh good.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s good advice. Well, Judy, I thank you so much for being here. It’s always a pleasure to work with you, and talk with you, and I’m glad to share you with the listeners in this episode. So thanks for coming.

Judy Ellis:

Thank you so much for having me, Kathy. I’m so thankful for my colleagues like you, who are really stepping in to the uncomfortableness that could be there with these kinds of discussions. I think you’re going to bring so much light to this discussion and encourage people to just dive in the deep water. I appreciate that so much.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Well, I hope that that’s what happens. Thanks again, Judy.

Thanks for listening to The Conscious Culture Café. If you liked what you heard connect with us at millerconsultants.com, you can access the show notes and receive our free materials. See you next episode.