EPISODE #2.3:

What We Can Learn From Our World in Crisis, With Kathi Irvine and Geoff Powter  

Or listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts.

How can you take risks, learn, and grow while our world is in crisis? First it was the pandemic followed by extreme financial distress.  And now add on the widespread racial tensions. 

No wonder we are all anxious and stressed. But we can still grab the opportunities that the crises offers, according to my guests, Kathi Irvine and Geoff Powter, organizational consultants and outdoors adventurers.

Geoff Powter and his partner, Kathi Irvine, are co founders of Watershed Organizational Development Group based in the Canadian Rockies. Together they have  more than 30 years’ experience working with leaders in every sector, and have been a part of the Miller team for over 10 years. 

They bring us their experiences and shared passions for the complexities and opportunities of change leadership, and exploring the risks required to adapt to the ever shifting ecology of work to all the clients they serve. 

Our world shifted dramatically a few weeks ago.   

However, we can still learn while we deal with the crises if we are willing to pay attention. 

It’s all about humility and giving up control, according to my guests, Geoff Powter and Kathi Irvine, joining us from their home in the Canadian Rockies. 

They claim that the secret is embracing the unknowns, and allowing ourselves to be vulnerable.  

Are we paying attention? What are we noticing that we haven’t seen before? 

Kathi and Geoff offer timely advice based on their lives as outdoor adventurers and organizational experts. 

Some of the topics we explore include…

• How to approach the crises with humility
• Why now is the best time to give up our enormous needs for control and how to do it
• How to adopt a visionary mindset
• The importance of becoming connectors and healers
• The secret to resilience and steps for developing it. 

And here are some links to Geoff’s award-winning books:
Inner Ranges: An Anthology of Mountain Thoughts and Mountain People
Strange and Dangerous Dreams: The Fine Line Between Adventure and Madness

Geoff Powter and Kathi Irvine are co founders of Watershed Organizational Development Group based in the Canadian Rockies who have more than 30 years’ experience working with leaders in every sector, and have been a part of the Miller team for over 10 years. Kathi had a career in financial services holding numerous leadership roles before transitioning into her own consulting practice, and Geoff trained and worked as a clinical psychologist. Together they bring their experiences and shared passions for the complexities and opportunities of change leadership, and exploring the risks required to adapt to the ever shifting ecology of work to all the clients they serve. 

In parallel with their consulting partnership, Geoff and Kathi are partners in life and partners in adventure. Both have travelled extensively, and are very active in the outdoors both at home in their own mountains and in the mountain ranges of Nepal, Peru, Morocco, France, Switzerland and Italy. Kathi is a life-long runner and cyclist, and Geoff is a very accomplished mountain and rock climber. He has had a love for mountains since childhood, and is a renowned mountain writer. His latest book, Inner Ranges: An Anthology of Mountain Thoughts and Mountain People  won the Mountain Literature Prize at the Banff Mountain Book Festival, and the U.S. National Outdoor Book Award, in 2019. Inner Ranges and his previous book Strange and Dangerous Dreams: The Fine Line Between Adventure and Madness can be found on Amazon.com 

EPISODE #2.3 TRANSCRIPT

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Welcome back to The Conscious Culture Café. Wow. We are living in interesting times. We’re in the midst of instability on steroids. The global spread of the COVID-19 virus along with the economic consequences are testing the grit of all of us. Yet this crisis, while threatening also presents us with opportunities, opportunities to lead, to learn, to become resilient.

My guests today, Kathi Irvine and Geoff Powter from Watershed Organizational Development Group based in Western Canada, are with me to explore these opportunities. Kathi and Geoff have more than 60 years combined experience working with clients from all sectors across North America and around the globe. They focus on organizational change leadership, and on the risks that leaders must take to make those changes. And I’m delighted to say that for the past 10 years we’ve been working together, because Kathi and Geoff have been part of the Miller Consultants Consortium. Welcome Kathi and Geoff. Let’s get started.

Kathi and Geoff and I were talking recently about these strange circumstances and conditions that we’re living through and we were talking about it from the standpoint of what happens in the workplace. We concluded that most of us are participating in the workplace either as employers or employees, and no matter which side we take it from or which perspective, we have to think about how we’re going to get through each day, how are we going to survive in these awful conditions that change by the hour. But on the other hand, we will emerge from this at some point. And so how do we prepare for the longer term? Once we emerge from the current threats, what is it that we will face? How can we walk into this unknown time that comes after the crisis?

We all agree that we believe we really are in transformational times and we’re all anxious about that, but we also know that with a crisis and with transformational times come opportunities.

Let’s start with the perspective of individuals or employees. Most of us are working from home, trying to figure out what this means and how to do it. Many people have lost their jobs and others just aren’t sure what’s going to happen over the next few months. So Geoff, under these really dire conditions, do you think it’s even possible for individuals to look for opportunities in the middle of this mess?

Geoff Powter:

Well, Kathy, I certainly don’t want to minimize the challenges that people are feeling and just how dire the current situation is, but the reality that a lot of people are starting to see is that there are some opportunities, there are some things hidden in the corners of this experience. And I think that’s where the opportunity to, as an employee, really help move some things forward, really lives.

If we look for those things that we haven’t seen before, we pay attention to them, we are curiously involved in what those changes are that we’re seeing, then I think we can start asking things of our work, we can start asking things of our employer that could really be foundational changes, transformational changes for perhaps a different future.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

So even though we’re uncomfortable, and most people are uncomfortable with all this ambiguity, we can learn to take a step back. Is that what you’re saying? Take a step back and reflect? Can you give me some examples?

Geoff Powter:

Well, I think almost all discomfort is part of change. Every time change happens, we have to be a little bit discomforted by things, otherwise we wouldn’t change. So if we start shifting our perspective and seeing that those things that are making us uncomfortable right now might have some hidden bold in them, some things that we can look for, things that we can lever, things that as long as we pay attention to can really make a change, I think this is a fantastic opportunity to do some things we might never have otherwise done.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah, that really does make sense. Kathi, what do you think about this?

Kathi Irvine:

Well, as Geoff’s talking, it’s also causing me to kind of reflect on that there is true opportunity. But I think that we also need to really just say that we want to hold space for those employees that are quite concerned, and are feeling the pressure possibly of the day to day, putting food on the table because of where they are. So I very much appreciate and I think we want to move people to that place of opportunity.

I would say that to individuals, whether you’re still employed or you’re not employed, is really spend some time on realizing, Kathy, as you said, this isn’t going to last forever and how can we just find a space of being in this without fighting it, because as we know, it is beyond our control.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

And that’s probably the hardest part for most of us. Most people like to be in control, like some predictability in their lives. Not everybody, but most of us. And back to Geoff, back to your comment about having to live with the discomfort, and change only happens with discomfort, that’s a really hard balancing act I think. How do you do that? What are some ways that our listeners can think about that? How can they put aside their anxiety in order to look for those opportunities? Or on the other hand, does it help their anxiety by looking for the opportunities? What do you think Geoff?

Geoff Powter:

Well, I think part of the magic of this moment, Kathy, is that we have to be able to keep our minds in both the spaces we’re talking about. In the one where we take care of ourselves, we recognize the things that we can control, we take very active steps to keep our bodies and our minds as healthy as they can be, we try and minimize the stress, we try and minimize the confusing information that’s coming our way.

But at the same time we have the opportunity to focus on what am I learning, what’s unexpected? What haven’t I been paying attention to in the past that simply by working at home or simply by talking to my neighbors and my colleagues in a different kind of way, I’ve never seen before? Both of those things of caretaking of myself and the people around me and looking for the opportunities can be held at the same time. It’s not an easy balancing act, but it can be fundamental to moving through this.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That does make sense and it reminds me of something that one of my colleagues told me last week. She said that she has been in touch with people in her company that she hasn’t talked with for months, if not years. Because people are working from their homes, they’re feeling isolated, they’re reaching out in new ways to people that they didn’t necessarily reach out to before, because that gives them a sense of connection. So there’s one of those opportunities. What makes the difference when we reach out to people and really have a conversation rather than think, oh yeah, they’re out there, but I’ll get to them at some point? So there’s an example of it.

Kathi Irvine:

If I could just jump in there as well. I had a lovely conversation with one of our clients who had sent an email to her president of the company after he had done a virtual town hall. And she said that she was so impressed by the confidence that he instilled in the people, or what she felt. And so she thought rather than just kind of brushing that off and thinking, isn’t that his job, she actually sent an email and was delighted. And she got an email back probably within 30 minutes.

I’m really echoing what your colleague was saying around that whole idea of reaching out because we will get through this. And so when I think about courageous caring, because those connections that we’re going to work on today and over the weeks and months to come really are going to fuel and breath trust when we back together again.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes. And that trust issue, I think is just so critical, more critical in a crisis than anytime. It’s always critical, it’s always foundational, but now is the time to really bolster trust because people are feeling anxious. And that’s a time when any kind of lack of trust could be a real problem. So how do you think, as individual employees, what would we, as you think about it, do differently in order to make sure that we strengthen trust with our colleagues? You got any ideas, Geoff, about that?

Geoff Powter:

Well again, I think as we’re speaking here, but just reaching out to one another. What’s happened has caused us to reach out to different people in different kinds of ways and surprising kinds of ways. And I think that we can maintain that energy. We can maintain that awareness of, boy, it was really good that we tried to connect in different kinds of ways and with different kinds of people. And if we stay on top of that and we make intentionality of those kinds of actions really part of our daily practice, I think we can continue the momentum, because this really is a time of a shift in momentum that could really work in our favor if we hold onto those things that we did that improved the situation.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Right. Absolutely. Kathi, you were talking about emailing the CEO who had done this wonderful town hall, and I wanted to go back for a second to the emailing business because another thing that I’ve noticed over the last three weeks is that people are having more web meetings to communicate, than just sending email chains, which I find to be very interesting. And so I asked one of my colleagues this week about that and she said, “I want to see their face.” I’m not saying there’s no place for email. Obviously there’s a place for email. But she’s saying there’s a human connection that we really need and that really makes a difference. And so Geoff, to your point, I wonder is that something that we’re learning about what it takes to really, really relate to each other?

Geoff Powter:

Well, if this whole COVID event is done nothing larger, it’s the connection of people, it’s the sense that we are all a larger community. And this has been a great leveler, a great equalizer. We are all exposed in the same kinds of ways and we are coming together because of it in new ways. And I think again, given this topic of activism, if we can be activists in terms of asking for more of the things that have served us well in this time, and not think that they’re just isolated to the COVID experience, but we’re touching something deeply human and very, very positive, if we can hang onto those things rather than just going back to the way that we were before, there’s a really fabulous opportunity here.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more strongly. I was speaking with a client in Dubai a few days ago, and she and I have communicated with each other. We’ve never met face to face. We’ve communicated with each other for about a year. But this was a new experience because she was in her home and I was in my home, and we had Zoom on and we were looking at each other and we were talking to each other in a way that we had never done before. And we both observed that. We both took note of that and said, this is all over the world. We are all experiencing the same thing. Yes, there’s nuances that are different, but we’re all going through the same experience. And that created a bond between the two of us that we hadn’t had before.

Kathi Irvine:

Kathy, if I can just pick up on the Zoom meeting where all of a sudden we’re now in people’s homes, I think this is a wonderful opportunity for us paying attention to our community. And some of the listeners may know that some of the video platforms have what are viewed as, I think they’re called vanity backgrounds. You can have a make-believe background on your video screen. And I think, no, this is an invitation to invite people into our homes now. And what Geoff was saying around this is a unique time in our history, and we would just really encourage people to pay attention and be intentional about what they might be looking for. Is there a way to do that through possible journaling or heavy conversations with peers with regards to what did you learn? Having those on the Zoom meetings in face to face? There’s so many opportunities and there’s so much rich stuff coming through all kinds of mediums as we well know.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

I agree. It seems to me as I’m thinking, I don’t think I’ve ever gone through a transformational change like this one. I mean, I’ve talked about transformational change a lot. I’ve worked with clients to help them with transformational changes, but they were in retrospect, mini-transformational changes compared with this one. This one feels to me entirely different, and maybe that’s because it is global and the uncertainty is higher than I’ve ever experienced in my entire lifetime. I’m wondering how you two are experiencing this transformation that we’re going through.

Geoff Powter:

For me it’s certainly been a fascinating challenge of, again, as I said earlier, trying to look for those opportunities here, to say what’s the message that this whole thing is trying to send me? What do I need to be open to? What do I need to change my perspective on? And really importantly, how can I continue some of the things that I’m seeing that are really good things in daily practice? How can I make sure that I don’t let all of those forces out there that will try and change the world back to the way it was before COVID, how can I make sure that I keep those forces at bay long enough that some really key changes get built in and that I get really used to them and in fact I started to insist on them?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s interesting because I have seen references from people, not so much last couple of days, but when this started a few weeks ago, well, when we get back to business as usual. What do you think? Will there ever be business as usual again, Kathi?

Kathi Irvine:

I’m actually more concerned that this does not become a transformational change. We live in a province that is very single industry specific, and I think that if we’re paying attention, leaders are paying attention, I think that we have nothing but opportunity and possibility as Geoff says, for us to change. And I’ll stop it at that because I’m not quite sure yet what that change is going to mean.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

We’ve been talking about, Geoff especially you’ve been talking about the learnings here. We talked about trust, we talked about reaching out to people in new ways. For individuals, for employees, those who are not necessarily in high level management positions, what other kinds of learnings do you have examples of, either for your own selves or for people you’ve talked with? What are people taking away so far from this?

Geoff Powter:

Well, I think one of the most important values that we can carry through this whole process, and this applies to leaders for sure, but even to us as individual citizens or as employees, is humility, is the recognition that we don’t have all the answers. We don’t have the certainty, we cannot predict even the near term future at this point. That’s a very liberating thing to have. If you can step into that with humility, be clear, be honest, be open, and in that spirit of community, bring lots of voices into the mix, I think that there’s really an opportunity to emerge from this in a different kind of way. I would love to see organizations on some kind of large scale way, have some learning meetings once this starts to settle down.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

I think that’s a marvelous idea.

Geoff Powter:

What did we do? How was it different when this was going on? What could we do to keep those things alive?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s a wonderful idea. One of the things that I’ve been recommending to people, and it’s hard, because we’re in crisis mode and we’re reacting, reacting, reacting. But one of the things that I’ve been telling people is, this is the perfect time to take a good look at your culture in your organization, because what happens is the bad parts of your culture could actually become worse during this time, or at least more visible. The good parts of your culture could also become more visible. So you can learn things right now about the culture you had before any of this started that you can address as you move into the future. But that’s a hard thing to do. It’s hard to take a step back and say, all right, I’m going to quit just reacting and look at what I’m learning about my culture from this. But it’s there, it’s there to be learned. If people weren’t friendly before the crisis, chances are they’re not now either.

Kathi Irvine:

To your question that you posed, we’re finding that people are reaching out for help and that help is by way of one-on-one coaching, saying  I need someone to have a conversation with. And very quickly to your point Kathy, we do get into culture conversations. We do get into how was it and how could it be, and that’s encouraging folks to give up control. And I know we might talk a little bit about leaders, but this, if any time was the right time to give up control, it’s right now.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes, absolutely. Let’s do make that switch to talking about leaders. Leaders who are good at leading transformations have a very different way of leading. And they have given up control and they are engaged in more collective conversations and collective impact. So this is an opportunity for leaders to take a deep look at themselves and what’s required of them to get through this transformation or to guide this transformation. Do you think they understand that this requires a different kind of leadership?

Geoff Powter:

I think Kathy, they’ve been stepping into, whether through obligation or good leadership, stepping into being very, very communicative with their teams. I think that that’s been critically important. They’ve really come to their people and said, “What do you need? This is what we have to offer.” They’re putting clear boundaries around what is possible. They’re affirming the connection that they have through people. And when leaders do that in that transparent and open kind of way, that’s more comforting by far than leaders saying, “We have this all under control, we have this beaten, we’ve got this secret. We’re better than anybody else at doing this.” Because the facts just don’t support doing that.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Leaders still have to move forward and they’re anxious too. We’re all anxious. But they still have to move forward, they still have to make decisions. What kind of framework do you see leaders using to make their decisions? And then what kind of framework do you think they should be using to make their decisions? Kathi, you have any thoughts about that?

Kathi Irvine:

Well I do, and I’ll talk about the leaders that we are seeing making what we believe are good, solid attempts at continuing to lead their organization. And then the negative sides will become apparent because there’s some leaders that are clearly doing the opposite.

But the first one is exactly as you folks were saying. It is about giving up control to a certain extent. We know that organizations go through life cycles. We also know that it takes different types of leaders to go through different stages in the life cycle. And as you’ve already mentioned, Kathy, everybody is going through this. 

In the visionary-ness, if that’s a word, it is for leaders to take a good look at themselves and say where are my strengths? And then make the connections to the people on their team to be able to, with way more intentionality, bring those folks in to the conversations that we’re talking about. So it’s about being a visionary, being connectors, being fearless in giving up some control, and being healers, because they’ve got this whole emotional cycle for folks to have to be able to deal with. And bringing the people in to the conversation when the leaders themselves can say, “I’m not quite sure how we’re going to get through this, let’s talk about it.” And we are seeing that in spades.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

So they’re willing to be vulnerable in ways that you haven’t seen before. Is that what I’m hearing?

Kathi Irvine:

In ways that we haven’t seen before because we haven’t needed to see it before.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Right, right. Geoff, do you have anything to add to that?

Geoff Powter:

It is interesting that I think that the people that we have often seen as the best types of leaders are doing exactly what Kathi is talking about. They have always done that. Now what we’ve done is we’ve given additional information to more leaders I think, that’s helped them see the value of transparency, the value of that humanity and humility. And I really hope that lasts, because those are really good leadership skills to have well before and we’ll after COVID existed.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Absolutely. And in my practice, what I’ve noted is that, at least this is my opinion, that there aren’t nearly enough leaders in corporations who embrace that type of leadership style. I still see a lot of leaders who think that they must have the answers, that they don’t want to communicate unless they’re sure of what they’re going to say or how they’re going to answer questions. And that just won’t work in this sort of environment. And really and truly it’s probably never going to work again. That would be my guess.

Geoff Powter:

And in that spirit of connecting all of us with one another, they’re going to be in every team, many people who are feeling a great deal of uncertainty, a great deal of anxiety at this point. And I think if leaders come forward and say “There’s no reason to be anxious, I have no anxiety, nobody should be worried. We’ve got this under control.” Maybe for a very small percentage of people, that’s going to be comforting and reassuring, but for most people are going to think I’m not being told the truth.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Exactly. Yes, whether that’s at the national level or at the corporate level for that matter.

Geoff Powter:

Absolutely.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

So where do values fit in this mix? As you two know, and you’ve been part of this too, many of our clients are what we call purpose-driven companies in that they’ve stated very clearly why they exist as a company, and they’ve stated their values and their commitments to their values and how they’re acting on their values. Where do purpose and values at the organizational level fit in this environment, do you think, Kathi?

Kathi Irvine:

Well, I was just smiling as you were setting us up for this because as I’ve been listening to the two of you talk, there’s been so much value language already woven into what it is that we’re talking about.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Good point.

Kathi Irvine:

I so appreciate all that what we’ve known and have learned about our millennials coming into the workplace. And Kathy, you wrote a great article on millennials I think on Forbes.com earlier this year. This whole cohort of employees are purpose-driven for the most part. I believe now is the time, as we have this chance to pause, is truly an invitation. For those of our clients, Kathy, that are already purpose-driven, how do they deepen that? How do they get a chance to improve it? And those that are less purpose-driven, what a really good opportunity to bring people in, as we already discussed, about stepping into humility and connecting with folks to say how can we have a more meaningful environment?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Have you two noticed, I don’t know if this is just peculiar to my email inbox. I doubt it. Every day I get two, three, four very personal, very warm notes from a CEO or a senior manager, from somebody that I do business with, talking about what they’re going to do to address the problems that our world faces. And these are from some companies that have never taken those stands before. Are you having that experience?

Geoff Powter:

Absolutely Kathy. It’s remarkable, the very personal kinds of things that are being said, the open declarations of how this is affecting our business, what we’re attempting to do for our stakeholders and our people, how we’re using this as an opportunity for change of the way that we’re practicing our business.

And I think one of the beauties of this time from a values perspective is that COVID can act as a real litmus test for us as individuals, as members of a couple, as employees, as employers, as leaders, where we take a look at how we thought and felt and behaved during this time, and then use that as a real clear lens to look at our values, to say that are the things that we espouse, the things that we believe we’re all about, did they hold up under the stress of this? That’s really the time when you measure a person or an organization’s character is not when things are going super well, but when the feet are really put to the fire.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Absolutely. And all those things that we as employees or employers take for granted or took for granted are becoming so visible to me what I took for granted in terms of interacting with my team. It’s really been an incredible experience just in the few weeks that we’ve been living this.

Let’s talk about resilience because I think that that’s what all of us need right now. As individuals, we need it. As leaders, we need it. Our organizations, we all need it. That is when we emerge from the current crisis, whenever that is and whatever that looks like, what does bouncing back mean? That’s kind of the definition of resilience. What does it mean to bounce back? What does that look like to you two? Kathi, what are your thoughts?

Kathi Irvine:

First of all, I would say it’s about bouncing forward. I do not want to sound trite, but it’s doing all the things that we’ve been talking about in just our brief conversation now, is for folks to be very thoughtful in what did they learn about themselves that they can take into this new world. And that means they need to be courageous, they need to take risks in order to make some of these changes stick.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yeah. Geoff.

Geoff Powter:

What worked for me? What did I see differently? What do I want to be doing? What do I want to ask my company to be thinking about? I’d really advocate from a point of view of broader resiliency that every employee in a company take the time to think about what did I see that was better than what was before? What was I surprised by? What was I disappointed by? And jump with ferocity into those conversations to say, “I saw some amazing things happen and I saw some things I wished did not happen.” How can we keep these things moving forward and to truly treat this as beginning of a greater momentum? Because that’s really what resiliency is about. It’s about find the momentum to move forward, not just I have the capacity to keep things exactly the way that they are forever, because that will always wear down eventually.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Right. Exactly. All right, well this conversation, I think we could probably talk for weeks about this and we may.

Geoff Powter:

And we have been.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes, we have. We may all have to get back together again. Things change so quickly that what I thought yesterday might change by tomorrow.

Geoff Powter:

And again, isn’t that exciting? Isn’t that wonderful?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Yes, yes, yes. It’s both scary and exciting and that’s what transformation is all about. So thank you so much for coming on today. Any last takeaways that you would like to leave with the listeners? Any statements or anything else that you’d like to leave with the listeners today?

Geoff Powter:

If I could just tell you a little story because it’s been one of the things that’s leapt out to me more than anything else in this moment.

So about a month ago, Kathi and I had a wonderful opportunity to do some work together in Kathmandu, the capital city of Nepal. Kathmandu is one of the most polluted cities in the world. It’s a really challenging place to be there for visitors now because it’s actually quite difficult to breathe. The pollution is so thick. This week there’s been a very strong-handed lockdown. They have started to put out pictures where, for the first time in 20 years, around the rim of the valley, you can see the Himalayan mountains.

Kathy Miller Perkins:

Wow.

Geoff Powter:

And I think that that’s a very powerful metaphor. What mountains are hiding behind your ridge lines? If things clear up a little bit, what can you see that you couldn’t see before? And I think from an activism point of view, this is a really interesting time for Nepal, because I just think about all of those children especially, who may have never seen the mountains that are right there on the edge of the city. And now they can see them for the first time. And how will that inspire them to ask for more and make some changes? And you wouldn’t ask for that if you hadn’t seen.

So I think it’s a powerful, powerful opportunity to ask yourself, what are the things that are out there that you’re seeing now the first time, and how can you make sure that you don’t forget about those in the rush to get things back to normal?

Kathy Miller Perkins:

That’s wonderful. What a wonderful metaphor. All right, well, thank you, you two. And we’ll get back together again and continue this conversation.

Thanks for listening to the Conscious Culture Café. If you liked what you heard connect with us at millerconsultants.com. You can access the show notes, and receive our free materials. See you next episode.